… again, you have to understand this perception, you know, this young North American woman, my Spanish, el español mío… you know, I tend to feel more comfortable to speak, you know, if people say “¿Hablas español?”, and certainly if there is no understanding of English, then I will speak in Spanish. But I was very much… you know, there was a perception about me that I also had to deal with. And that was also very difficult.
PREGUNTA:
Never in relation to someone in the movement suspecting that you might be an agent or…?
STACEY NOTINE:
No sé, de verdad, pero eso es interesante… Nunca, no, no…
PREGUNTA:
Pero…
STACEY NOTINE:
Claro, claro… I never even think of… you know…
PREGUNTA:
Yo se lo pregunté a Bob porque siempre ha habido ese…
STACEY NOTINE:
No, I know with Bob this has been announced. I know, at times I even thought this about Bob. Because, you know, we have very divergent… I thought “Well, the CIA couldn’t do any better than to have people like this…” You know, so when people first mentioned that to me, I was so taken aback, but then, you know, it’s a perception. It’s just a perception. But it’s interesting you bring it up. And very likely, I would imagine there must have been people… A lo mejor sí, claro. You know, but it wasn’t… eso no fue… I never felt en términos de part of the struggle… I mean, really, it’s very idealistic…
PREGUNTA:
But you still sympathized with it…
STACEY NOTINE:
Oh, claro… oh, claro… It was a way of being, of having a voice in it… of having… not just a voice, but feeling that I could help or participate. Y en términos de… of that part of the protest, the violence really was a concern to me.
PREGUNTA:
When you talk about the violence of the struggle…
STACEY NOTINE:
Oh, I was afraid that they would kill people, that they would just kill us, the military would just open fire and kill us. That was very clear to me. My first… you know, as I was saying… eso fue… this was right at the time of coming and beating… you know, this was right before they are getting arrested. And, you know, this helicopter coming, and I’m telling you, I mean, we, this is women and children and nuns. And they chased us with the helicopter, I mean they could have decapitated… you know, there was no… they had no concern for… and that was very obvious, and that then, you know, made a very big impression on me.
PREGUNTA:
Did you feel the same way when you got the news that Ángel Rodríguez Cristóbal was killed? Did that really contribute to your feeling of uncertainty or fear or…?
STACEY NOTINE:
But then you get into… I guess you intellectualize, you think “We need to have a dialogue…”, you know, this dialogue, and you know, so of course I was not… I had no doubt that they had killed him, you know, that he was killed. It didn’t occur to me otherwise, that it could be otherwise. He didn’t kill himself. And what little I did know him, this is not a person who would kill himself. This is not. I mean, I cannot conceive… unless he had been drugged by them. I even… into some strange delusion, I mean, this was not who he was. This was not a man who thought of… in any way, you know, taking his life, at all. You know what I mean? You know? This was not a man who would have depression or viewed anything, any challenge in that sense, not at all. Not, you know, but then it was a… you know, the (no se entiende) was really “We need dialogue, we need…”
PREGUNTA:
That’s basically your take in the…
STACEY NOTINE:
And in that time actually my friend was helping, at that time, to manage the “Casa del Francés”. And I became very close then with a lawyer who was coming with his family, who was very much involved in the civil rights and getting him in touch, being in touch with him, with Bob, this kind of discussion of… this is someone, too, who had represented the political prisoners. The first release of the political prisoners in Puerto Rico. And so it was, the conversations began there and, you know, steps you take in terms of “Could there be a possible dialogue?.”
I sort of… I… I became more, you know, I really felt in many ways working with the community in terms of education, I’ve always felt this is a more important… and for me, it interests me more. It’s… I must say, though, that it’s also… it’s very frustrating and I don’t really feel like I’ve gotten very far or that anyone has gotten very far on this…
PREGUNTA:
Coming back to the question of, you know, the role of perceiving yourself as a young woman in relation to this, you know, group of people involved in the struggle… How was your perception of some of the strategies that they were…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Una de las cosas que tengo… I felt, what happened with me was a separation, as I came more to know la comunidad… you begin to hear all of the different splits or arguments within the group, that to me, really, the voice of the community was more credible to me. And for the most part, the perception, the community at large was “this is all politics. This is all individuals with their own agenda.” And trying to weigh all of this out as a growing, you know, you get involved very emotionally, to a degree. And also, you know, just perception is what it is. My… my… tendency was more to be with the community, with families that spent more time taking care of their family than getting involved in what were very political and dangerous... Yes, to me that was that part… to me, dialogue was, we got to figure out… I really kept thinking there was a way to dialogue. I mean, now I really do think, yes, I continue to think that. But, how impossible it is. You cannot deny how impossible it is in terms of the United States and Vieques, specifically.
PREGUNTA:
For example, you, in 78, 79, you would say instead of stopping Navy maneuvers with boats, with fishermen boats, you considered it would be better, maybe, to enter into a dialogue…
STACEY NOTINE:
Yes, in part… I was not ever against… no, no, no… I think, this is a battle. In that sense, I mean in that way you bring back to this gentleman, and I wish I could remember his name because… You know, the dignity of… because it was done with such dignity. And you know you are seeing, you are physically, you are seeing what’s going on. You are seeing, then, the military, the look on their face, who they are. There’s no question in terms of… yes, yes, pursue your path, you know, you know, your coraje with… Yes, but realizing these people are using a helicopter. They’ll kill us. You know, there was also that. And then, you know, in the community, when there wasn’t the protest, when it was day to day life, you know, more important was what can we do, you know, with education, what can we do with the immediate needs of the community. This was a terrible, this a terrible time.
PREGUNTA:
No, yo te entiendo. Simplemente quería clarificar un poco…
STACEY NOTINE:
No, no, I wasn’t… just to put… you know, there was no stopping, I mean, I could see in the eyes of these people, they would kill us. You know, we mean nothing to them. You know, that was what I realized. That was very clear to me.
PREGUNTA:
So, in that case, realizing that, in retrospect, maybe to think that there was no possibility for that over that time…
STACEY NOTINE:
Yeah, but there was… I couldn’t… you know, you intellectualize it. You know, you read, you talk with lawyers, you talk with, you know, community activists, they weren’t called activists… you know… You know, and I came from a background of this, so there was always… music, you know… Bob Marley, you know, you get into that… you get into what other aspects, exactly what you are doing here. This is something, personally, that I thought was needed then, documentaries, this avenue. Because at the same time, too, one of the things I was learning about and realizing was from the North Americans here, their perception. And these are very wealthy, for the most part, well-educated, very successful business people. You know, the twenty, thirty groups who had bought property here. And especially in this area here where I live. Which at the time, when I first came here, there was no one walking, you know, I was just walking around the island, you know, just taking different hikes. I would just sleep where… you know, in the forest, where… and it was different friends, it was fun, just discovering Vieques.
And so we’d walk up here and say “Oh, this is really lovely”. And you see, it’s abandoned houses, so they know where they have vacation homes where they just come on the weekends. And I leased a place right on the boulevard there… and Frank said “Oh, no, this is dangerous, you are right on the road, you are a woman by yourself, you should not do this…” The Camacho family particularly said “We don’t think this is a good idea, you are by yourself.” So, I wound up coming more in. This was actually a little shed that this very wealthy North American woman by the name of Elizabeth Langhorne, who began this Vieques conservation trust, who was… and this was something, this was a dialogue I got into, this idea of this Vieques conservation trust, historical trust, and there was a man by the name of Paul Caron who at that time was the owner of Casa del Francés, and trying… he was struggling to make it a national historic site.
So, there were those dialogues going on, thinking in terms of “OK, what can we do to help Vieques”, you know, what can be done… and there was getting to know, in particular these two people, who were very interested in, in… conservation efforts, which I agreed with. Although there was an incredible dichotomy of bombing this island and we talking about conserving. But there was also what was immediate for me to learn, was a sense of denial of the North Americans, of what was going on here.
PREGUNTA:
Even from the people showing solidarity?
STACEY NOTINE:
Well, that’s just it. I didn’t find any solidarity in that sense, in… you know, it was sort of like, you know, this kind of look when you’d bring, when you’d bring up the situation of the economic struggle, the lack of tools for people here. In terms of the lack of jobs, the lack…
PREGUNTA:
Not necessarily the political solidarity…
STACEY NOTINE:
What was very obvious to me was that the North Americans did not want to engage in any conversation or any perception of that… of there being a problem.
PREGUNTA:
And these were the people that were even involved in the conservation trust? -Yes, yes…
STACEY NOTINE:
This is happening all at once, you know, and understanding that the North Americans really did not want to see any of what was going here in terms of the disadvantage to people, that people were being disadvantaged. Or that people, you know, I would go so far as to say oppressed. They did not want to… they were very defensive. They were very, very defensive.
PREGUNTA:
And these are people that were…
STACEY NOTINE:
These are very educated traveled people…
PREGUNTA:
The people that constructed the historical image of Vieques, the kind of academic…
STACEY NOTINE:
Bueno, adentro del… sí, exactamente. Pues y por eso yo creo que… you really need to talk a little bit more with Alegría, because he is someone who was involved. You know, this is also an argument I had, when it’s a constant, be it in the press, be it wherever I find it. This whole attitude of “Oh, Operation Bootstrap”, you know… “all the poverty-stricken Puerto Ricans”, you know, I’ve never seen in terms of resourceful… Puerto Rican people are enormously resourceful. And that’s a wealth that now I think... I think you, your age or your generation has some perception of that, in terms of that it’s being denied or that it’s being ignored.
For a few generations there we had a problem, where people were thinking. People, yes… there was poverty, but there was poverty all over the world. When people generally say “Oh, in the thirties, in the forties”… In the thirties and forties in Missouri, you know, anywhere in the world, especially in the United States, because it’s typical. You had this, you know, this comparison. There was enormous depression. There was enormous poverty in rural areas. You know, to paint this picture that is so protected, and this was also something that I’m perceiving and, you know, like the white man’s burden: “We are going to come here and save this place.” And the destruction that was wrought out of the lack of ability to understand a different culture. And the very aggressive way that the North American, you know, you know: “Let’s get it done. Yesterday.” You know, engineering linear perception and…
PREGUNTA:
Even in the academics, even in the…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Yeah… just…
PREGUNTA:
At least, you know, back in the seventies, Do you think that attitude of the North Americans in Vieques has changed a little bit?
STACEY NOTINE:
Yes, because I think, you know, in the whole more people are beginning to be a bit more… certainly, my generation, you know, that was the generation, and the generation before, the sixties, you know, the seventies, the fifties, where people were beginning to question the government, and so now there is obviously, you know, there is something more of that. But to the degree that… even with the groups that I deal with, the national groups who deal with so-called military toxics, military presence in terms of the toxic legacy.
So many of them will say to me “Oh, Stacey, it’s just like… Vieques is just like, you know, anywhere in the United States any world place that has suddenly been discovered, and it’s been gentrified and it’s becoming a tourist attraction.” And it’s so amazing to me that they really… they really believe this. They really do not see, well this is not, this is not at all what… you know… there’s a big distinction. You are talking about a totally different culture… a lack of, you know, these are people who never had or were given the choice… it’s just a totally different situation. I mean, they are in denial, it seems to me. There’s no comparison. It’s apples and oranges. You know what I mean? But, yes, that is…
And here I still feel, yeah, I still feel that there is a great sense of denial in terms of just how profound the oppression is and inevitable the defeat for the people here are. I don’t think that’s… you know, I have not been able to make… to engage in conversations or to, you know, which is something I’m trying to do right now. Where do we go from here? Still, again, I’m a little different, you know. No, I’m not just into protesting, yes, I am into dialogue. What is meaningful dialogue? Where can we go from here? Overall, again, I think education absolutely is the most important… you know, being able to open a university here, this is what… this, for me, is what needs to be done here.
PREGUNTA:
Stacey, I have a question about how… if we can map again a little the stages of the struggle… There were two positions, you know, that were kind of almost absolute and excluding each other. On the one side the Navy. On the other side a kind of…
STACEY NOTINE:
Pero tú estás hablando de la lucha dentro de la comunidad, de la comunidad, y no en términos de Puerto Rico as a whole political body…
PREGUNTA:
Bueno, lo que pasa, yo estoy hablando de la lucha el U.S. Navy contra los pescadores o el U.S. Navy después contra la sociedad civil puertorriqueña en el 99…
STACEY NOTINE:
Pero esto estaba, eso… You know, I think that for me that was… Don’t you… I mean, do you really not…?
PREGUNTA:
El diálogo, ¿tú crees que estaba?
STACEY NOTINE:
I mean, Puerto Rico was already so trying, I mean… from Muñoz Marín… you know, trying to make sense, you know, there was one saying that, you know, I thought this was so… you go “Well, when you go around in circles, any point is a turning point,” you know, and I see, I mean…
PREGUNTA:
No, yo lo veía, lo que ocurre es que, por ejemplo, ha habido ahora en la lucha una, digamos, cautela tremenda, en ocasiones un diálogo totalmente roto, tanto con el Navy como con, como con Fish and Wildlife, y yo lo que estoy viendo es si esta posición del diálogo es de alguna manera una tercera posición que puede mediar entre “No quiero hablar con el Navy” o el Navy dice “No quiero hablar con el Comité Pro Rescate o la Alianza de Mujeres o con Taso o con Ismael o lo que sea, ¿no?, un poco esa cuestión…
STACEY NOTINE:
Para mí, en esto, sí, exactamente, en esto… I think, you know, if you don’t have trust, you can’t have dialogue, and I have been very frustrated by that. You know, especially this whole struggle with, you know, from the beginning, you know, creating this “We have to be on the TRC,” you know, “we have to do this,” and you know, getting people to get involved in this technical review committee and this thing, staying in touch with EPA, that we have to go to these meetings, and this is before David died. You know, with the EPA when they were soliciting this permit, you know, this whole idea, yes, of dialogue. At the same time, yes, these are people we don’t trust. At the same time, yes, but there are laws here… can we take them… can we go to court?.. You know, all of this is constantly going on in my head. You know, how do we politically, legally, you know, how, you know, that when I talk dialogue, that’s what I mean as well, you know, I mean that.
And so, you know, to the degree you say, you know, you are naïve about anything until you do it, until you finally, you know, begin doing it more and more, whatever it is, including court cases or… So, you know, you grow a little bit more as you get involved in these things… the limits of the law, the limits of that dialogue, the limits of the Constitution, which, you know, what is that? What are the limits of the Constitution? You know, is it a judge’s perception? Is it a Congressional debate? You know, it’s also, you know, the court of public opinion. You know what I mean?
And this is a very, you know, the question of Vieques, you know, in the terminology, you know, is the Achilles heel of the relationship between, you know, Puerto Rico and the United States, you know, very graphically. But certainly more so, the problems with drugs, the lack of… the problems with education. Again, we are getting back to where we just started, you know, this… the oppression, this is the Achilles… now I’m gonna cry… This is the Achilles heel, really more so.
And so, for me, I don’t… I always find, you know, I cannot assume I have the way. You know, once I’ve taken a charge, you know, but… at all… Y en esto… I do have a problem with the so-called community leaders in that exclusivity that they have. And I feel they are very unrealistic, and sort of in denial themselves that they are… they are political bodies, you know, that they are political bodies, and what that means, you know. And is that who they really want to be? En el caso de Ismael, eso… esa es la lucha de una familia… you know, it truly is. You know, I think you’ve gotten to know Ismael. I… -Te refieres a Ismael Guadalupe…
Sí… -Que es una lucha de una familia…
Sí, sí, and not just to say, you know, (no se entiende). But in terms of what can we do, you know… You know… communities, communities have governments. Governments exist. You know, you ignore them at your peril. You ignore them to be… you know, to only frustrate yourself. Is it frustrating to get involved with them? Yes, it is. But what… you know, when no alternative is being given, I think this is my biggest… and it’s not… and I’m seeing people just sort of get very defensive and not give an alternative. And I feel, I really feel, you know…
PREGUNTA:
When no alternatives come out of the process itself or the leaders…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Yes, in the discussion of… for instance, I feel like the Calderón administration truly has been unlike any administration in solidarity with this community. I truly… that’s been my experience… Perfect? No, but they are available to the people, absolutely. Immediately this becomes political. You know, I say “Can’t you just look at Sila and the different people? Can’t you just look at her as a person? You know, why… Don’t attach politics to it and go and speak, you know, on those terms, and…
I fear that there’s too much of a political… there’s too much of a political struggle, of a political… political agenda, political stance… el problema es que para mí… and I’m very honest with them, I say “You know, maybe you should run for governor”… perdón, “for mayor”, you know, but that’s not really who Ismael is. But then you really have to change your grow, and can you? And that’s what then, you know, when I speak of this difference between a North American del latino, there’s a way of life, and that’s part of the dignity, that’s part of it.
You know, can we sit here until (no se entiende)… you know, people have to change and learn to grow, you have to conform… no, you don’t… you know, yes, you do, but not necessarily in the way that a person expects you to. You know, you can protest that, but this is where I say “Okay, but you need to realize what you are doing. But you are not offering, as a group, then, Pro Rescate, you are not offering an alternative to people.” And they need that. People here don’t need more politics. You know, they need training, they need education, and that’s what they want. They need jobs. That’s the reality. You know…
PREGUNTA:
And now I think it would be interesting to… for me, actually, to ask you: Do you think that sometimes the whole, you know, impulse of the struggle could run against some kind of more human impulse in the community, even to survive, to live, to enjoy, or to struggle with other things? Do you see that balance between condensing everything, either against the Navy or against Fish and Wildlife?...
STACEY NOTINE:
¿Cómo si…? No entiendo…
PREGUNTA:
Eh… ¿hasta qué punto la lucha quizás a veces se lo traga todo y no deja quizás espacios para momentos más humanos? ¿crees que eso a veces pasa, que a veces…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Sí, eso yo creo que sí… eso…
PREGUNTA:
Que la lucha se traga…
STACEY NOTINE:
Hay que ver, tú sabes, en términos de la lucha, si tú vas a usar la palabra “lucha”, la lucha… siempre, cada día hay una lucha en términos de… you know, but there’s also beauty and greatness and wonderful… you know… and you have to embrace that and that’s your identity and that’s who we… as a culture… Do you have to then create a lucha because now the military is gone? No. There is lucha… you know, how do we embrace our identity, you know, embrace our community, and keep those things that we truly value that, really, ironically this strange twist of fate allowed us to have, you know, here in this community, a sense of timelessness that really exists, you know? Of course, in Puerto Rico you can go to San Juan, you go to el campo… How do we maintain that, all these things, and then again, you get back to the question of land, you get back to the question of the economy, you get back to the question… Also, overall, and in all of this, of education. Because we are being taken advantage of. And any of that, in any of this… you know, so in terms of… you know what I mean? In terms of the lucha, the lucha is in that sense a more… is not just political. You know, politics is being human. Yes, it’s political. But, you know, to be constantly, you know, the politics of… partisan politics is I think, you know, for me it’s a very frustrating…
PREGUNTA:
I would like to ask you how to balance… I know you’ve been an active participant of the TRC… how to kind of, maybe in between, like a committee that is working with very kind of difficult knowledge about the environment, and at the same time trying to educate the community about the dangers of what’s going on in the decisions that are going to be made by the U.S. Navy to clean up or not or, you know, the EPA, the legal, the very, very complex legal juncture that both the east and the west have…
STACEY NOTINE:
Which in a way becomes even more… in the end it’s very much part of this conversation we are having. Because there, again, you are dealing with governments, you know, and that’s who’s dealing with this. The Puerto Rican government, you know, has to be involved, and are involved with this. If you ignore what they are doing, if you choose not to have dialogue with them, but rather make political barbs at them, not be in dialogue, not understand, you know, why they are doing what they are doing, not present to them, in dialogue, with a desire to resolve what it is you oppose or are concerned about, you know, this for me again is, this is the frustration, where I’m seeing, you know, it becomes very political. Can we turn around and say “you are dealing with really lousy laws and none of this works. We know all of… the United States… you know, just to make it simple. The easiest thing would be what has ever been cleaned under the military, or more important, really right now. When has identification of the actual, you know, trustworthy identification, the actual magnitude of the contamination… which, for me, this is the most important thing.
And this, under this process is the Safe and Clean Water Act in Massachusetts. You know, that I understand any other… from all of this. You know, we are not, especially because we are not functioning well as a TRC. We don’t do the things we are supposed to do. We do not meet. We do not review. We… It’s more of a… It’s a… You know, it’s very difficult for people to be involved in this… you know, it’s useless we get information… it provides us information… it provides us an opportunity to be in discussion with la Junta (no se entiende)… but as I’m saying, since no one really wants to pursue these discussions because of politics.
PREGUNTA:
And who are the… who are participating in these discussions?
STACEY NOTINE:
We are, as a group, the TRC. And we are not, you know, because there is no… and then I say it’s because of too much of our own politics… has become… -You want to get the cigarette… ¿Quieres encender el cigarillo?
I think I did.
PREGUNTA:
¿Las organizaciones han apoyado…? ¿cuál ha sido la historia de la organización y los protocolos…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Oh, this is all, I mean, this has been a problem. I mean, this whole idea of you know, I have to… first of all there’s been such a lack of community groups here that… unless the religious groups. But they have a very specific, you know, agenda. And you can’t dialogue, you can’t mix these two… In terms of getting involved with this group that began actually by Víctor (no se entiende), and myself, and we were really discreet, a fellow by the name of José Arroyo. Discreet activists, you know, in it. Do you know Víctor? -Aha…
And this was specifically as a result of the frustration with the sports complex, el complejo deportivo allá en Puerto Mosquito… which was really one of the first disasters of the military, and for me, so sad. Because it’s just so typified and so… you know, the absolute lack of respect that the military has for Vieques, for having dialogue with Vieques. I mean their intention always was to get rid of all Viequenses, to have the island to themselves. They had never had any… that I can say… and me, perhaps, there were commanders here and there that wanted to do the right thing or… you know… None of them ever achieved it.
And that… you know, building that, getting them federal funding and the federal funds being squandered. All that to me was such… so typified, you know, just this… you know, what is wrong with this relationship. Anyway, so this group was formed to start, you know, to really protest these developments. On the north shore there was the Martineau Bay, the housing development, which attached on that beach, which is to the side of Martineau, El Gallo Beach, is a… was the only public beach left on the north shore besides the dump. You know, to the civilians, to the community.
You know, and that was really began getting involved in terms of the process, you know, having to deal with the Puerto Rican government, the Federal government, the municipal government. And all of us doing that. And it was very much divided. I dealt with the federales, because of the English… Bob… Bob was not… Pro Rescate was not involved. They were little bit, you know, of course Nilda was there with Pro Rescate. Bob was a little bit hesitant about this. You know, “why are we going to talk to the federales…” And, of course, Ismael very rightly, you know, saying “the EPA, there is no distinction between the EPA and…” And to a degree, yes, he’s right, you know, he’s absolutely right, the Federal government is not going to sue itself, it’s not… but, they do do it. There is… there are these thin windows there. You know, and is it worth it trying to do that? Well, that’s what we are looking at. That’s what we have to do. Has it been done? Yes. Where? In Massachusetts, you know, where you had Kennedy and Kerry and you know very powerful political…
But I, we are very powerful. This is a very powerful struggle. You know, this is how I would like, you know, to see us all feeling. And just absolutely with resolve, you know, pursue what it is we want. But the problem I see, yes, is in the experience of these past three years in trying to enter
this dialogue with the community leaders. Maybe that’s the wrong thing, because they really have their own political agendas… -And now…
And so it’s what with who, because you just can’t be one hand clapping, one person. And the rest of the community, you know, they just sort of roll their eyes.
PREGUNTA:
And what else has been the experience with the TRC in relation to itself, you know…?
STACEY NOTINE:
That’s what I mean, we don’t… we have a problem. And there’s been lack of honesty with that, which very much disturbs me, that, you know…
PREGUNTA:
You were mentioning that there have been some problems in terms of the language protocol, the Spanish versus the English…
STACEY NOTINE:
Well, very much so, from the beginning everyone saying “This is all in English”, you know, “it needs to be in Spanish.” And that’s absolutely true, but in the meantime, the meantime, all of these activities, which would be so-called investigations, which then come to further action or no further action, as they have these acronyms for everything that they do. And it’s all within a time frame, and it’s all within, you have a commentary period, you have a review period, etcetera, it’s very bureaucratic.
If you are going to sit and say “I refuse to get involved because it’s in English.” Well, then, obviously you are going to have a problem because you are not going to be able to, you know, you are not going to meet the deadlines that you need to meet in order to be effective. Inclusive, you are not going to be able to dialogue, you know, if you don’t read this stuff, you know, what are you going to talk about? You can talk about it politically, but, you know, that’s… you are in the wrong… I’m not going to say it’s totally the wrong form. It does have… it is important… but we are specifically talking… you know my specific fear? We really don’t know what the contamination is. And this is after millions of dollars have been spent all this time of… you know, for me, personally, just reviewing all of this… you know, we… you know, the basic questions are still not being answered. And how are we going to answer those…? How are we going to find out? I really would like to know how, you know, we need to do that. And how are we going to do that?
You know, because of that situation with Rosselló, I really was thrown, myself and my son, into a kind of perspective of a… you know, political activist or… which I’m not a political activist, you know, I’m not… I’m not a really a person who really… I look at politics more as… not theater… but I don’t… my ideologies are not political ideologies, they are more spiritual or intellectual games or perceptions…. Religious, spiritual, not political.
So when the argument comes to me: “We can only pursue this under independence, this identification and clean-up.” I mean, that doesn’t make any sense to me.
PREGUNTA:
Clean-up with independence?
STACEY NOTINE:
Yeah, you know… First of all, I think we are… the United States absolutely should pay for this. You know, that… that is absolutely, for me, that has to be done. You know, Puerto Rico should not be in any way… and obviously Puerto Rico is paying for this. Puerto Rico has been paying for this for a hundred years. You know, it’s paid enough. And that’s part of the conversation. Yes, so in that sense, you want to say that’s political. But I think… politics, any party… except, I must say, with Calderón. What they have done so far, you know, they allowed that discussion to take place. Do you know what I mean? -Aha, aha…
PREGUNTA:
Lo que quieres decir es que la gestión política ya se está haciendo con el gobierno central, con el gobierno estatal, un poco… -Muy poco…
Muy poco, pero hay algo.
STACEY NOTINE:
Hay algo, pero para mí lo que está mal es… again it’s being taken in a very personal level, very defensively. There’s a lot of egoistic… and you can say it’s childish, or it’s specific to this group of people. Other people you would really be able to get into a dialogue. You really… this is a truly big undertaking, and you have to, you know, these are very slick people that are… you know, that are doing this worldwide. They know exactly what they are doing. You know, you have to beat them at their game. You cannot hesitate. You cannot keep bringing up…
For me to bring up the fact that we have been oppressed by a hundred years, you know, by this military, you know, has its place. But just to stay with argument, you are not going to find out what’s in your ground water, you know, and have them clean it up. And that’s what needs to be done. What’s in the air? What’s in the ground water? What’s in the fish? We need to do that… we are now… how many years? I get, you know, from the time of first sampling… Clinton, I feel the one thing he did give us, if we were to talk about it this way, was a year out there. And I think you can talk about it that way, and it’s worthwhile to talk about it that way. And we should have been sampling… Yes, we should have been sampling everywhere.
You know, just to mention the word “environment” at that time, people were very angry with me. How dare you mention “endangered species”, “environment”. I’d say: “Where do you think the illness comes from?”
PREGUNTA:
Do you think that people, some of the leaders resented that you got involved with the TRC?
STACEY NOTINE:
I mean… yeah, that I pushed it so much. Yeah, yeah… and then Bob would, yeah, you know, he has a short memory about it. Very much so. And it was, you know, it was really very frustrating. And also very frustrating to hear people say: “Stacey, you do it so well, keep doing it.” You know, it’s like: “You don’t understand. This is not. That does not… you know, I’m one person. I’m not a scientist, I’m not a lawyer. You know, I’m getting involved in these other… with scientists, with lawyers, more so with lawyers because more lawyers were available.”
We need all these things, and we need to begin, you know, we now have incredible mass of information we have to go through. And just saying: “Stacey, go ahead and do it,” you know, it’s not going to work. Because three years down the line, you are going to say: “What’s going on here?” And then it’s really going to be difficult to try to explain what’s going on here. You know, so even if you don’t trust, which I don’t. I do know it’s our only avenue. This is what is there. And we don’t have anyone forward saying: “Let’s sample.” I know no one, at least. Maybe it is going on. Es algo that’s really been very amazing to me. Again, I think to speak of this oppression. Why is it that lawyers, that scientists have not come here in droves to…? Not in droves, but this is… -To support your…
No, no el mío, but Vieques, you know.
PREGUNTA:
Pero de alguna manera eres una de las personas que representa el esfuerzo viequense, por eso te digo que tu esfuerzo de, tu decisión de alguna manera de… instead of closing every avenue of dialogue… opening it up because there’s nothing else, at least now, or at least it’s important to be present in what’s going on…
STACEY NOTINE:
Well… sí y no… because they know that there’s no continuity in this… you know, they…
-Who knows?
Oh, the Navy absolutely knows and uses it.
PREGUNTA:
They are doing this to just cover the procedure…
STACEY NOTINE:
No, they legally have to do this.
PREGUNTA:
That’s the obligation they feel…
STACEY NOTINE:
Well, but they legally have to do this. You know, they do. And this is, you know, in one thing. Does the EPA have any (no se entiende)… You know, it hasn’t happened before. The only thing you accomplish is, you know, you say: “A bomb is there and you need to remove it.” If you get so far as to say “a bomb is there.” We are not even getting that far. By now we should be by far, we as a community should be far more engaged in dialogue… they are not even engaged, you know, and we should be.
We are losing, because you need to be, you know, you need to be talking “what is it that you want, what is it you want, what do you want to know, what is not happening in this process, what is not available, what is not going to happen in this process, what could (no se entiende) to improve this, why won’t they do that…” In a very real sense, not to just make a political statement and be in the press. But legally, you know, what is the… that dialogue needs to be had… and it’s not… you understand what I mean? It’s… and any… you know, anybody can do that. It doesn’t take even necessarily reading all of this stuff. That just happens to be who I am. You know, the way… I can’t talk about something unless I have some perception of, you know… and this is how I get it, as well as talking with other groups, military toxics, etcetera, you know, other communities in Massachusetts.
Hola… Julián, this is Juan Carlos. Have something to eat. Come.
Again, this is for me… at this point I’m trying to… Okay, what do we do? Because we are spinning wheels here, and we are wasting time, and we are going to lose Calderón. And I don’t know what that’s going to mean. If Rosselló comes in, I shudder to think… I have no idea what could happen. It could be disastrous. The lack of dialogue with the municipality is disastrous. The lack of dialogue con el municipio that is… everyone is in competition with each other for center stage. We are… it’s a big problem. Porque ahí mismo es como, you know, divide and conquer. Es como el Navy… it’s like they never left. And it’s the leaders of the community doing it, and I’m going: “Why am I seeing this and other people don’t mention it?”. But then they go: “You, Stacey, change your perception, you have to…” So that, for me, that enters into a struggle. Again, I see the youth and I see the youth for… But we don’t have the time to take care of… I’m leaving gaps in my… It’s really all happening in that sense, and for me that’s enormously frustrating. Some people say: “Stacey, go study law, become a lawyer…” For what? You know, to talk to who? Who would be the client?
You know, it would be better to teach children. But en el sentido de… again, I do not want to be… you know, like a… you know, I’m not that kind of person… “Oh, I’m going to go out on my own and, you know, start some organization.” I don’t see that as an alternative for me. So I stay with this… now we are going into this so-called… but it’s same people… I don’t have… and I see it… I mean… One thing that really bothers me is if people manipulate truth, they are in denial, I think everybody does…
You know, and in that sense… you are not, you are not facing the challenges that are in front of us and we have to do something about. We are shadow-boxing. You know what I mean? It doesn’t have to be this difficult. You know, we can get answers. You know… I just… you know, we can be in dialogue. We can say: “Okey, there’s no dialogue here, we are not going to get”… We can do all that kind of… and take the next step, you know.
PREGUNTA:
What happened with that group of… Jorge Colón, these people…?
STACEY NOTINE:
It’s very disenfranchised again. You know, there’s no communication. There’s no sharing. Again, we are not… you know, one group to the other, meeting once a month, meeting once every two months, sharing information, having a goal. What are the objectives? What are people’s objectives? Just to ask that question: “What are your objectives?” What is it that you want? No, no es para que… no. It’s not.
PREGUNTA:
Pero, por ejemplo, una situación ahora del barco (no se entiende) que estuvo en San Juan…
-Sí, Tulio está ahí…
Exacto, y un poco, como que…
STACEY NOTINE:
En términos de que como otro… en términos de que todo el mundo estaba diciendo: “Stacey, sigue, tú estás haciendo bien, sigue con esto…” This is a perfect example. Within records there’s a particular question, there’s a terminology: “Hazardous components”. Certain hazardous components, you know, could be so-called reviewed or regulated. You know, under the military’s munitions rule… and so, if you don’t know, you know, if you know that, then reading these communications, reading these studies, you wouldn’t know… “Well, are they lacking or could they do better?” You know, within the law that we are under in this review.
You know, and… a legal fight has to go by those laws. Where those laws are lacking, and they are lacking, and the evidence that they are lacking is tremendous, and it’s not just in Vieques. It’s nationwide. It’s worldwide. Use that. It’s a very powerful tool. Join with those other voices. What… you know… what is the problem? You know, what is the problem to speak English?
PREGUNTA:
And for example, the other kind of community that have some interest in Vieques…
STACEY NOTINE:
Oh, great interest, pero en esto lo que te…
PREGUNTA:
Pero mi pregunta… por ejemplo, no la comunidad de Vieques, sino la comunidad científica de Puerto Rico…
STACEY NOTINE:
No, en ese sentido yo no he visto eso… yo no he visto y esa es una buena pregunta. En términos de posiblemente… just some technical advisor that I pushed for because of my relationship with the group he works generally with, and so he became this technical advisor immediately, so-called, for what is the TRC. And I still push for him now in terms of this coming… simply because this is someone who is aware of the process, so perhaps… his name is Ted Henry…
PREGUNTA:
Is he the advisor for the community?
STACEY NOTINE:
For the technical… you know, I can say this… for the technical… for what it is going on in the… You know, what documents the military will allow him to see. Now, one of the things… again, it’s good to bring this up… that specifically come… you know, another complication, but it’s what people are dealing with everywhere. We can do it too. Ted Henry is hired by the military. He’s paid by the military. He’s only given the documents that the military, you know, is willing to give him of these investigations.
PREGUNTA:
And he is the advisor of the community…
STACEY NOTINE:
And he is the advisor… you say of the community… It doesn’t have to be limited to him. But he’s the one reviewing and making commentaries for the community members of the TRC. Now, are we in touch with him to discuss this, these documents? No, because nobody is reading them. Do people lie and say “oh, we are in touch him all the time and we are making our comments and…?” Yes, you know, which is when I hear this is like: “Well, this is fantasy land”, you know, and that’s not good.
PREGUNTA:
Who is not going through them? What community? The community of the TRC or…?
STACEY NOTINE:
The community, pero todo el mundo puede… you know, I’ve offered this to Bob, to Nilda, everybody can comment on them. You know, I mean, that’s the point. You know, again, to the degree that you feel that this is… valid. Yes, of course, it’s not totally valid, but this is what is happening within this forum. Do Ted Henry’s commentaries come with… are they a silver bullet or a way that would express all of our concerns, all of our reservations? Absolutely not. For that reason you must read. You know, you must have some knowledge of this, so you can express the concerns beyond which Ted Henry is going to express, who comes at a very particular, narrow situation. But he is aware of the process. And that is important. Because that is far more process… because you are dealing with, you know, this game of who’s responsible to pay, who’s responsible… you know, to identify it, and then if you identify it, clean it up.
And you know, to the degree that you don’t want to talk about it, well, nothing is going to get done. You know, how are we going to get anything done? You know, is the Puerto Rican government doing all that they can? From what I can see in the commentaries, from what I’m engaging with them there, yes. We are now, for instance, in this “no further action” that the Navy has declared. And they declared it not just on the west, but they also are declaring it on the east. To this… the questions that I have had from the very beginning in terms of community leaders getting engaged in this remain the same, remain unanswered.
You know, what is it you want to do about this? What are the objectives here that you have? So far, all I’ve seen, again, it’s not, it’s not dialogue, and it’s not totally honest. It’s… you know… it’s…
PREGUNTA:
Do you think that the problem might be that it involves such a knowledge and kind of a sacrifice that it overwhelms whoever, you know, whoever gets involved, you know, like the gap in knowledge…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Well, there again, yes, you could say... You know, it takes a particular kind of bind, certainly, to want to just sit and sift through all this stuff. But, you know, if you are going to… you know, you register your car… you know, you have to… it’s not… you know, you just have to read and react, you know, it’s not… you know, you write a thesis, you write an essay, it’s not that difficult… you know, it’s not, it’s really not that difficult… you know, in this… it’s not that difficult. It’s just, you know…
PREGUNTA:
I know, I understand, but why then the…?
STACEY NOTINE:
I don’t know… I don’t… you know, again, it’s because it’s in English… you know, well… you know, that in and of itself shouldn’t stop you, but… then… FIN.-