… wealth is who you are, not what… You know what I mean? Not what you have. Y eso para mí… that’s always been… that’s what’s made Puerto Rico such a luxury to me… the incredible beauty, geographically, incredible beauty of the place and the abundance of food everywhere and wealth, in that sense, wealth. And people taking in that, people sharing that. There’s no question, you know, no one will go hungry in Puerto Rico. You know, of all the places I’ve been… typically, eso es algo típico del latino, ¿no? You know, but that sense of wealth. You know, that, that’s been… that something wants…
PREGUNTA:
That wealth is part of you and not a property that is…
STACEY NOTINE:
Apart, apart from you…
PREGUNTA:
… that you just take advantage of… for use or calculate or…
STACEY NOTINE:
Share… and share… and have knowledge with it, and that’s your life. You know, one of the things, my closest friends here are the people… como que… that live with, have such a knowledge of everything that grows. They use it for medicine, they use it for baths… y hablan, tú sabes, el ánimo que tienen… this is our daily lives, this conversation, this living with everything that is around them. You know, they surround themselves with the vegetation that they want, you know, to keep their husband, you know, his stomach well, you know, to keep the granddaughter, you know, without asthma, you know, this kind of thing.
So there’s also that connection there. So, it’s not just… it’s a connection with the living world, which I call in a sense, you know, the physical living world. So then, that’s… Do you know what I mean? That’s like a currency as well, but it’s a different… you know, it’s a currency. So it’s been… I bring that up because it’s been… like the money, you know, thinking about that, like the whole… that’s been part of having to learn about, about how, where, you know… Where do you stop this destruction? How do you… How do you speak about… preventing… what you are afraid is happening or what you are seeing? That people are losing this wealth. And then you realize there’s this, there’s that silence that we… that we’ve mentioned a couple of times, you know, in terms of, you know, that time between the massacre of Ponce and the end of this past siglo and also in terms of Vieques, of now… Where are we going? What are we…?
In many ways is people have… the one good change is they are not bombing anymore. So, that’s really, you know, just that. There’s no other change, really, en una manera. For me, for most of… what I feel, what I see, ¿verdad? They are just not bombing, they are not bringing more…
It interests me how… as you’ve spoken with many people, so I’m engaging, you know, how you perceive this, this question of what is the change, what… you know, how has it changed for people, is there… you know, how has it changed… and I’m a… I’m a mature woman, I’m a 50-year-old woman. I’ve raised a child, I’m raising, you don’t stop ever raising your children or being a mother, but it’s a… you know, for me it’s different. I mean, I have to… I was raised in North America until 16. My compassion with Puerto Rico is… I was born here, so this is a very deep seated passion. But in terms of nation, politics, I feel, you know, I’m a person of Nature in that sense. I feel very much, you know, we really… being born and raised in the time I have, you know, we are citizens of this planet. I don’t have senses of nationality with borders in that way.
And so, my… you know, my experience throughout especially the past five, six years, to this moment, where I have this apprehension now with being involved with the business that I’ve had for 20 years that’s been very successful and this hesitation, this whole sort of trying to peel… there’s an onion there I have to peel away, is different I think than what you are mentioning with “Oh, yes, you know, there are people have been in the struggle that, you know, had a conception of it, but now that the moment is here it’s very different.”
And trying to touch on that, it is, it is like realizing how frail we are and how unprepared, and in that sense, the change is so vast. It’s day to night in terms of there is a viability in the land, and having just spoken up for the land was the important thing, it was all we had. So to say this is the viability in terms of economics I think this is very difficult. This is, you know… What does that mean? Because you don’t want to lose the land, you don’t want to sell the land. But if there’s no other means of making money, what do you do? So, in a sense, the struggle is the same. And having to trust politicians, the struggle is the same… please engage in it...
PREGUNTA:
Do you think, for example, that this emphasis on land might have a cause of maybe… taking into consideration the people, what they do, the other types of, like, sources that…
STACEY NOTINE:
You mean in terms of the real estate people, or in terms of the community?
PREGUNTA:
Even of the community and people that say: “We want our lands back”…
STACEY NOTINE:
I think that’s a generational thing, that my experience, with my friends of just aquí en la comunidad de Pilón, you know, let’s take that as an example. You know, what has been typical of my nearest neighbors is the children leave, you know, after high school, if they continue with college or not, you know, or it’s just to pursue work, you know, the majority of them are in the United States. And this is a matter, a question, of before David’s death, that this was happening. What I’m seeing now, though, that gives me hope, more and more the young people, the young people in the family are helping in el negocio de la familia, si hay uno. And the thought is to stay and to, you know, because they want to stay and make Vieques their home. So this is my… there is a feeling, I think it is generational, that the parents will say “look, you know, we’ve got the land, it’s worth so much, maybe we’ll just sell an acre or this o make money this way, right now there’s that opportunity.” But the children are thinking “no, you know, let’s, you know, let’s wait and see what happens, let’s take hold of this economy that’s growing.” So, I think that, you know what I mean, there’s a generational difference. The problem there is education, then, of course.
PREGUNTA:
Do you think the new generation is more prepared to see other economic ideas apart from the land, from…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say, but I think they also realize it means going to the island and that is a very big, that has always been, especially for the males, a very difficult step to take. Unless, you know, there’s other family, which in many instances there are, you know, they can stay with them, but it’s a very difficult step, leaving Vieques to pursue education, for the males. The females seem far more able to do this. It’s not as traumatic for them. So there is the kind of boy who was able in a social time of your life to be trusting with girls and in that sense, you know, they go ahead. But the majority of the boys I have found, that’s a difficult struggle.
And then, of course, with the presence of the military, that, and the fact that their family being employed by the military, in those instances, many of them, you know, would continue with the military. You know, going through the military there was that happening. But now, of course, this isn’t happening, but the job, educating and, you know, what are we going to do other than tourism. Those conversations I’m not hearing enough of… -Other than tourism…
Other than tourism what are we going to do.
And there’s a giddiness, you know, I think the Puerto Rican people are, as a culture, we are, the Puerto Rican people are very different from the North Americans in terms of that kind of, that kind of perception of, you know, what we were just talking about, of currency, of making a living. It’s a very different perception. There’s not this urgency. It’s not that they are blind to the need for money, but the… what you have to give up, you know, especially here in Vieques, it’s very graphically visible, in order to get to that point of making money. It’s something that people think about more than, you know, and I say that because I… I’m raising a son who is 19 years old. When my North Americans friends who live on the island, either permanent or so many months of the year, immediately, you know, there’s no question that you go out and go get your education and, you know, you get involved. To me, it’s not realizing, you know, he really just does not want to leave this wealth of who he is and this community for, you know… for that, necessarily. He really hasn’t seen yet, you know, and hay un problema. And for me the hugest problem is drugs, of course.
PREGUNTA:
Claro porque quedarse es…
STACEY NOTINE:
Porque de verdad, eso es… This is the most immediate job everybody can get, especially the youth, the young men on the street. At any moment, he can sell his little dime bag or, you know, to get by for the week. You know, a few every day or whatever. That’s immediate. That’s there always.
So that’s another interesting… you could say “well, every community has that”, but I would say no. In terms of… it’s very interesting, I think, the family values here are very strong, the respect for family is very strong, you know, you typically, in that scenario, you don’t have to send the kids to the street selling pot to each other. But you do here. You know… And I think, you know, I think the police know about it and they rightfully, you know, they keep their eye, but nobody is arresting all these young kids. I mean, that would be an absurdity. But that is something that does bother me. You know, that that, unfortunately is so available. The fishing is not, you know, it’s just too few people now as a family doing that. The market, I would say, for that is more the problem. And, actually, again, the drugs are the problem because so many fishermen have gone out and have found drugs. And the currency for that was so much greater than, you know… which is, that’s a problem for everyone to go through.
PREGUNTA:
And, I’m trying to go into how you get into Vieques and all that, but this conversation is so broad that I don’t know…
STACEY NOTINE:
And also I think there is the language thing which is a major… being that we are talking in terms of tourism and, you know, the ability to speak English, which kids are learning here by doing. Like people who are now working for (no se entiende), this kind of thing. This is something that I think I should go back to, to teaching English. But then, again, ese sentido… it’s like, what are you doing, like… you know, at this point, I’m trying to find my place, feeling good about who am I now, you know, in this part of my life with my community and my family.
PREGUNTA:
When would you mark the moment of feeling this change, after the U.S. Navy left or maybe after you noticed that it was going to leave or…
STACEY NOTINE:
No, it was before David’s death, yeah. You know, I’ve known about (no se entiende) and that’s an easy way to… for, since he first came to this island.
PREGUNTA:
How did you… maybe we can start with… how did you…?
STACEY NOTINE:
I was living in El Yunque, and it’s really sort of funny in a way. Suddenly, there was construction going on, development of… qué es el nombre de… algo de Yunque, something de Yunque, this organization, Colinas del Yunque, algo así. And suddenly they are discharging all this water into the river that I used for bathing and that I went to, sort of every day, and I’m seeing this, discharging, “oh, no… we have to do something about this…” They can’t just be discharging, you know, people, they don’t realize what they are doing. So I started to get involved and “ok, what can we do about this?” And, you know, it was very frustrating, not a lot could be done about this. You know, you are looking at what’s coming, and at the same time my friend had been coming here going snorkeling, you know, and diving, so “oh, you must come and see Vieques”. So a group of us came over one weekend and that’s how I got here and I felt in love with the place.
And it took about three years to actually live here, because the problem was “how am I going to support myself?” And during that time I was weaving things. Doing art and weaving things. These little baskets that are out, you know, this kind of thing. And doing some painting… santos, cosas así… -¿Cómo ese que tienes ahí?
Sí, como ese… it suffered many hurricanes and years…
And so, of course, there was not… I could live here, but then I had to go away to sell these things, because there was no one here who was going to buy them. There was no money here for anyone, you know, and this was okay, so I would teach people to… -This was when?
In the mid-seventies, so it took until 77 or so, 76, that’s when I first came and actually this spot is where I’ve been, in this spot since then. Right here. And I found this walking around and chose it because I could see El Yunque from here and it’s very green. Because one thing about Vieques, it’s much drier than Puerto Rico. Y la falta de agua, the dryness was… that… that made me wonder “What am I doing here?” It was a little bit depressing to me.
PREGUNTA:
Y entonces en el año 77 cuando vienes empieza la primera lucha de los pescadores. ¿En esa parte?
STACEY NOTINE:
Exactamente. It was with… it was funny, I was with… because now, so many years later, we see each other. I was with this group of monjas, of nuns, who actually were involved with some people from Hawaii who were here. And I… so I knew Ismael, I knew Taso, you know, I felt… I was a very young woman, that was a much more como macho, como… antagonistic (no se entiende) and a little frightening to me. -The struggle, the way in which the struggle…
Just the actual… being part of the conversations, listening, the perception of the community. By that time, I have to tell you, I’m tearful... my story… then, ay Dios mío, the first… reception, remembering back, but it seemed within the first month of living here in Vieques. Then it was known, I’m a resident. And you have to understand… this is… I don’t know when you were born, but not long around that time, at that time I was literally the only… there was three of us, North American blanquitas, you know, rubias, in Vieques. We were quite… one, it was interesting, she was living with her father, she would come and go because she was still in school, another was a teacher, my friend Barbara, but we were quite a phenomena.
And so this was… that was also for me a little bit difficult to deal with in the very beginning, settling here and feeling safe and wanting to feel part of the community and yet… so I tried to understand, so in terms of la lucha, lo que estaba pasando en… what was going on there, and listening to the community, the frustration and sort of to stay away, mothers protecting their children from, you know, the violence, because this is what people were very readily and rightfully afraid of, and…
One of the things that happened that amazed me so, and one day I’m walking from the beach, and this man who was well into his sixties, early seventies, comes to me and says, así en inglés, you know: “Why is it that you and your country…” Ay, Dios mío, yo voy a llorar… “Why have you taken from us our dignity? Why have you taken…?” Y yo ahí, in my bathing suit, una muchacha, you know, just… And I was so taken aback by this man. He had such command and he’s asking “Why have you done this? You’ve taken our dignity, you’ve taken our jobs, and now you give us food stamps…” Así, en inglés, he’s telling me this… “and you know, our youth are sitting at home and all they think of is selling drugs, and what we have, we have food stamps. We don’t want food stamps. You took our jobs, you took our land. We have no dignity…” And with such a dignity this man said this, it was such an amazing thing to me, to have someone so clearly speak their mind and, you know…
PREGUNTA:
What happened to you at that moment?
STACEY NOTINE:
I felt like… I felt like he was being a father to me in life. Maybe because I didn’t have an answer and I had to put it somewhere. But that’s how I saw him, paternally. Maybe to disconnect myself because I’m in that moment representing to him the United States. He’s saying “your government”. I don’t really remember so much my response, to tell you the truth. But that was right at the time…
PREGUNTA:
How did that transform you? Were you thinking at that moment of joining or sympathizing with the struggle and then… how did you…?
STACEY NOTINE:
Well, this, this struggle in terms of the economy, in terms of the haves and have nots, civil rights, human rights, was something my mother was very involved with. I was raised with the civil rights movement in the United States. So I was very much raised with… in this atmosphere of la lucha de… as a child, civil rights, human… you know. What was different for me here was the perception in terms of the military, the U.S. military. At that moment, of course, what I’m feeling is the fear that the community is feeling of violence from the military, because that’s… that is what was happening. They were being, I mean their stubbornness, their myopic attitude, to me, to this day is an outstanding thing. At that moment, though, we are talking about violence to the degree where I’m sitting there in Esperanza with this group of sisters and these people ahí, la gente de Vieques de Esperanza, families. I think Mianou may have been there, you know, families, Barbara’s family, different… Alejo’s family was there. These helicopters… you know, we are chanting, and these helicopters come right above… I mean, I thought they were going to cut us in half with the blades. It was the most profound… and we were women and children… on the beach… and it was just terrifying, it was outstanding to me. That hit me, you know. What can you do about that violence? You are a human being, you are made of flesh and blood, there’s nothing you can do to this helicopter that’s coming. What can you do? We had to move. We had to leave.
You know, and so it was… How did I feel? That time there was no questioning who was in charge of what was going, you know, at that moment, you know. What was outstanding to me was that people, yes, would go… the military would do this. That I did not anticipate.
PREGUNTA:
So, in a way, the man asking about his dignity was something that was familiar with you because you came from a background in which, you know, civil rights and all that was part of your kind of, formation… What really surprised you about Vieques was not so much the struggle, but the enemy in a way, or the Navy or…
STACEY NOTINE:
And the total lack of discussion. I mean that’s beyond the pressure. You are the… you know, you are being attacked. You know, that was… there was no dialogue…
PREGUNTA:
The lack of dialogue between the community and the U.S. Navy.
STACEY NOTINE:
Yes, there was no… that was no… it was no dialogue. Nor any… any thought of dialogue. And that to me was obvious in getting to know the military people that I did in that time, because they were still here. They were still… until 78, 80, they were still 500 or so always camped in Camp García y por allá en el oeste, como 20 o 30 personas de (no se entiende).
PREGUNTA:
Y con esa gente ustedes… tú compartías con la comunidad, pero también llegaste a conocer a algunos de los…
STACEY NOTINE:
Some of my… some of the people in this community were working and some of them I would give them a ride. Also, I would go to the west side to get the leaves for my weaving. And so there I would meet, you know… and the same on the east side going to the beach as well, and so you would have contact with these military people who were really very frightening, very frightening people.
In terms that they were very uneducated, mostly from the South, and mostly what you learned was that they were offenders, criminal offenders, who had a choice: either you go to jail or you go to the Marines, and this was the…
PREGUNTA:
The people they would send to Vieques…
STACEY NOTINE:
These were the people, yeah, these were the… and hundreds of them. And certainly as a young woman, it was a very scary situation. I was involved then with friends with a restaurant in Vieques, starting restaurants, and we would not let them. Because of the violence, because of the… you know… there was no question that there would be violence if you let these people, you know… That’s what their whole perception of being out, you know, or being on… How do they call it? Whatever it’s called… eso tiene un nombre… -¿Licencia?
No, es como, you know, that they are… -Como una misión…
No, they call it, when they are… anyway… -Service
No, pero cuando está, tiene tiempo libre… There’s a name for that. Whatever that rest or relaxation. They were out looking for problems. And I think maybe that brought, yes. That had the analogy of detentions with police in the South during the civil rights time.
And so, that kind of fear was not new to me, but it was different here, because on the other side there were… I didn’t find that there was really a dialogue and I think a lot of it was because of who I was, you know, I was this young woman and so, so different, and there was a lot of distrust of who I was. You know, living alone with my animals, you know, in the campo, there was… she’s a pacifist, that kind of thing. But I didn’t have the avenues for getting involved with the community specific to la lucha in terms that I felt comfortable with. You know, it was very macho. You know, Taso is very male… and there was a violence there. To me… I really felt “these people are going to get themselves killed.” FIN.-